These Classmates Did NOT Spend Time On The Ramp

These Classmates Did NOT Spend Time On The Ramp!!!

Ladies and Gentlemen, the question is, are these Classmates:

a.  Program Beaters?
b.  Very Bright?
c.  Very Lucky?
d.  All the Above?

Subject: RE: 58B Dribble
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 08:35:26 -0400
From: "Raynsford, Robert W Dr ASA-FM" <[email protected]>
 
Question on the Ramp: Somehow I avoided it. My question was about the
experience of others. Was the Ramp for the unlucky few or was avoiding it
some kind of achievement?
Subject: Re: Ramp
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 10:44:10 -0400
From: "Ed & Marta" <[email protected]> 
 
The Ramp....to an ole Ramp Rat like myself it held no particular 
feelings...I had walked Ramps in SAC for many years dressed in fatigues,
P-pot, canteen, combat boots and carrying a carbine with several mags of
ammo..only diff was the rigid stance and sharp executions of
movements...still it was not an unpleasant prospect as I had learned to lose
myself in thought while walking around B-29s, B-50s, C-123s, KC-97s,
etc...while still maintaining an alert eye and ear out for the things that
are not normal.....I evaded the ramp because I wanted my weekends
free....one way to do this was to know the mem work and to stay away from
first class....on ABO I always worked my way to the farthest shrubs, the
most distant rock or the bushes next to buildings where I could go low and
move slow to glean trash that had blown under said bushes....totally unseen
except to the most astute and diligent searcher...I ran many errands,
delivering messages and going for forgotten items...that too insured little
or no harrassment as I was on "A Mission from First Class"...Volunteering to
perform entertainment was always good for those wonderful all purpose RED,
WHITE & BLUE TACKY BIRD CREDITS!!! No expiration date, used them to wipe
out any DR and stay off the Ramp....that was it....nothing brilliant or
magic, just kept a low profile and kept earning those credits....I think
there were more than a few that managed to stay off the ramp after the
initial tour that everyone performed that first weekend...I don't know Bobs'
secret but it might make for some good "memory" talk at the reunion...
Adios,
Ed
Subject: Re: Ramp
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:14:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: bobby burnett <[email protected]> 
 
Ollie, I cannot be classified as a "ramp champ." 
While second class in my final week or two, I was
approached by a first classman who asked me how many
hours I had on the ramp. I told him none, so he gave
me a white one for two hours. Since the honor code
compelled me to tell the truth, I had to walk. I have
another one for the dribble. WHO RETIRED FROM THE AIR
FORCE AT THE YOUNGEST AGE WITH THE MOST SERVICE? I
retired on my 41st birthday with a 25 year retirement.
(24 years, 8 months and 11 days). How about some
dribble on that one. Bobby Burnett, Thundering Third
Subject: Re: Ramp
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 12:28:11 -0400
From: "Prentis L. Ollis" <[email protected]> 
 
Bobby, we conducted a survey a couple of years ago in which a few of the
troops participated in.
The results are posted on our Web Site. Visit the following URL:

 http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~ocs58b/survey/index.html 

Click on Results of Survey to review data.... Click on 58b Classmate
Trivia to submit data...

I think this is about what you were thinking?

Ollie
Subject: Re: Ramp
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 05:33:07 -0500
From: "Jim Haynes" <[email protected]>
 
Ollie, to the best of my dwindling remembrance, I did not
spend any time on the ramp. Don't know why. Lucky, I
guess. Jim Haynes
Subject: Re: These Classmates Did NOT Spend Time On The Ramp
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:54:54 -0500
From: "Jim Haynes" <[email protected]>

Not a problem with me, but as I previously stated, "in my
dwindling memory" I could not recall spending any time on
the ramp. Someone with a better memory may contradict this
and state that I did indeed spend one tour, but I don't
THINK so. Let's see if anyone at the reunion can remember.
If they can, I will profusely apologize. Jim Haynes
Subject: Re: Ramp
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:14:40 -0400
From: "richard-ohara" <[email protected]>
 
Ollie,
I can't give any reasons for how one could avoid the ramp. I could give
several dozen ways to make sure you did walk, having been in close
contention for the "ramp champ title", but I'll let that stay unsaid.
Subject: Re: Ramp
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 20:01:35 -0600
From: George Crongeyer <[email protected]>
 
Ollie, Robert, I do not remember ever doing a ramp tour. But then, I have
submerged a lot about that time. Sorry I can't help. George
Subject: Re: Ramp
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 22:40:21 -0500
From: Arlet Boyer <[email protected]>
 
Dear Ollie,

I know I did my fair share, at least I remember wearing my first pair of
brogans completely off at the heel.

Helen Boyer
Subject: Ramp
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 22:07:33 -0600 (MDT)
From: [email protected]  (John Gerry) 

I couldn't believe there were some folks who missed out on the joys of
ramphood. How can your memories be complete without being able to go
back to the good old ramp where: Under that gentle Texas sun your ears
were the only reason your Garrison hat didn"t slide down far enough to
blind you;the frangrance of your wool uniform soaked in sweat reminded
you of a wet, dirty dog; where your footprint was etched in the concrete
in melted shoe polish; where the buildings you were staring at began to
dance in the heat waves; where, when they finally gave the command to
rest, nothing wanted to move; where when they gave the go ahead to
smoke, they were so wet nothing short of a blowtorch would ignite them?
I also remember Mr Ollis turning a bright red one sunny day, and if
memory serves me, a heatstroke was a near thing there on that warm,
dusty ramp. We were in that short sleeve shirt, shorts, knee high sock
uniform , the name of which escapes me in spite of the many times I used
it in the morning minute calls. While I was not the ramp champ, I don't remember having any weekendsoff, being "ramped over" most of them. 
In any event, perhaps we should try to find that little piece of
concrete and show those who missed that delightful experience what they
missed. (Course, October is really too comfortable to really get the
full flavor of the experience). I guess the reason some of us had more
time on the ramp was due to our needing a bit more "molding" than
others. 
Guess I've "dribbled" or "driveled" on long enough. _ John G.
Subject: Re: These Classmates Did NOT Spend Time On The Ramp
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 23:10:51 -0500
From: "Jim & Lane Colvig" <[email protected]>
 
All I can say is they missed a beautiful experience.(?)

Maybe Ed missed it because he was labeled as being from 3rd Squadron.....where the well behaved were assigned (Choke.....kaf..kaf... sputter..haak....urk.).

Jimmy-the-Haynes was so thin in those days he was nearly invisible......We all envied him.....thus explaining why he missed the ramp. Jim could "weather vane" during an inspection, and do a Lamont Cranston sort of thing. Lets not rule out that he was
also one sharp troop.

Maybe Robert Raynsford was equally sharp. I remember him as being quiet and mild mannered....perhaps the Gentleman First Class were using as a bench mark in measuring, molding, and mauling the rest of us malleable males.

I'll vote choice "d" for the three of them.

Jim
Subject: Re: Ramp
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 05:28:27 -0500
From: "Jim Haynes" <[email protected]> 
To: "John Gerry" <[email protected]>,  <[email protected]>,  

John, I will let you treasure those moments, since obviously
they are very dear to you. I, on the other hand, whilst you
were pondering the melted shoe polish, prefer to treasure
the memories of starching and ironing my and my roommate's
uniform, polishing shoes, studying, etc., as our other
classmates were enjoying the temptations of San Antonio or
their wives billets. Jim Haynes, Thundering Third
Subject: Re: Ramp
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 10:25:31 -0400
From: "Ed & Marta" <[email protected]>
To: John Gerry <[email protected]>, 
CC: 
[email protected] 

John, you have an excellent memory. I hated that "Shorts" uniform! It did 
nothing for me because of my sparrow legs.. Did we wear the Bush Jacket??
Could be wrong but I'm thinkin' it was 1505s??? Said it before someplace
but I was really impressed with Dories' toughness....She was one steadfast
cookie....red ants running up and down her legs, she blinking back tears but
not one peep or movement!!! Can't remember if this was on our first
Ramp day or during some formation not having to do with punishment
tours....but I will never forget her "Will". Tides In Plaques out???
Brushing teeth and showering in nylon unders with Tide?? Take down razors
hidden in wallets and cold tap water shaves in Femoyer Hall after lunch??
Teeny scissors for clipping nose cables?? Bob Raynsford was indeed the
coolest young guy in school....I never saw him get shook up..always on an
even keel....Thinking back I don't remember a lot of competition, the "knock
em down, sort em out and tag em later" kind of stuff between the
squadrons....I thought it was mostly Second Class against First...and
frankly we won quite a few little battles for being as addled and panicked
as we always seemed to be!! maybe all those Ramp tours were payback?? I seem
to remember some guy in First Class saying that our class 58B, had the
record for Ramp Time.....sound about right??? My favorite First Class guy
was Cruciani....Fourth Squadron Commander...matter of fact I think the
Fourth Squadron First Class were all pretty much First Class guys...I can't
remember any that were going "Crazy" trying to eliminate us....Runco was
formidable but a good troop who knew when to back off and become
supportive...from what I have heard there were others in other squadrons who
were out of line with their second class...enough so as to still evoke bad
feelings when remembered....glad we didn't have that in the friendly
fourth...Anyhow it was as some classmates have said the singularly most
impressive six months of our lives.....I sure agree with that!
Ed
Subject: Re: These Classmates Did NOT Spend Time On The Ramp
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 09:41:53 -0700
From: "gino rita" <[email protected]>
 
Hi Guys,

I did not serve any ramp time either. Being an old NCO, you learned early on how to "Beat the PROGRAM. First, be cool and not be intimidated by your First Class peers. Second, show confidence in yourself. Third, be motivated and convince First Class that your officer material. Fourth, gain First Class empathy by looking pale, sickly, underweight, and retarded,  As I was only 5'6" and barely 120 lbs, many First Class didn't even know I was there. Like my compadre Eduardo Garcia, we did all the smart things. However, I did get one of our First Class riles up during our ABO daily exercise. He pulled 3 white ones in 30 seconds flat. His name was Sam Moschella. He offered me ramp time or march the damn cockroaches out of the corner of our building. This future "full bull" and his other classmates belly-laughed as I was harking out commands of
"About Face", and "Right Turn" and "Double Back Time", all to no avail as far as the cockroaches were concerned. I stood up at attention and asked permission to speak. Being granted permission I informed them that I had not earned the cockroaches respect as I was only second class. Consequently, I said, "Perhaps one of you First Class gentlemen should give it a try". Since the leader of the pack was Mr. Sam Moschella, he looked me straight in the eye and about 2 inches away from my face and whispered, "You got balls little guy, to suggest that I or one of my classmates should do your dirty work.
On the other hand, your right, you shoudn't require someone else to do something that you yourself couldn't do". Whereupon he stepped back and returned my three whites..... 

So that's how I nearly got ramp time. Program beater, lucky, smart? None of the above. A quick thinker, yea... Learned on the streets of Philly as a kid growing up on the south side...

Guiseppe, aka Gino, aka Joe Rita 
Subject: Ramp
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 11:12:47 -0600 (MDT)
From: [email protected]  (John Gerry)
 
Got to thinking about my memories of the ramp. Since this all took place
in the months of Jan,Feb & Mar wonder why I remember the heat above all
else? Can also remember falling out for morning meal formation where all
was a sheet of ice (falling down the steps was more like it) and none of
the future officers and gentlemen warned anyone else coming out.
I do remember one of our first class in fifth squadron by name of Polley
spending so much time under my chin I began to think he was my necklace.
Yes, 1505 was the name of that uniform, and if I remember, the bush
jacket was optional depending on weather etc. Amazing how just six months of ones life seems to define so much of it. Also remember helping a classmate (can't remember who) get ready for a personal inspection by the first class by lifting him into his starched
trousers and carrying him up the stairs so he wouldn't wrinkle his uniform on the way up - took five or six of us to do it. Anyway, all this dribbling is sure bringing back memories long forgotten. Since I'm a latecomer to the internet etc. I'm probably replowing a lot of ground most of you have already covered - sorry about that.
John 
Subject: Re: These Classmates Did NOT Spend Time On The Ramp
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 13:28:07 -0400
From: "Ed & Marta" <[email protected]>
 
SOUTH PHILLY!!! had a great fellow Air Policeman from there...we were together in Savannah......couple goombahs, lean, mean and free swinging....had the girls throwing rocks at their dates when we showed up at the Savannah Servicemens' Social Center... told the girlies we were brothers..... Name was John Marchionni..... Went to France together.... stopped in Philly and stayed a couple nights at his home... His Momma loaded us up with sphagetti, meatballs, italian bread, cheeses, pepperoni..tried to fatten us up before going to France..... Great Family!! Ah the good old days when you could eat, eat and eat and never gain an ounce ....!! barely two years later I was in OCS.....still lean but not so mean...
Subject: Re: Ramp
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 13:32:06 -0400
From: "Bob Fields" <[email protected]> 
 
John:

Don't worry about replowing the old ground.

Most of us can't even recall where we left the plow.

Bob Fields
Thundering 3rd
Subject: Re: Ramp
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 13:45:33 -0400
From: "Ed & Marta" <[email protected]>
 
We are all replowing.... have to on account of the long and short term memory
syndromes... carry on.... it is great to hear it from different classmates'
perspectives...!.
Subject: Re: Ramp
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 14:26:32 EDT
From:  [email protected] 
 
Ollie: Good question on the Ramp. I remember it very well. In fact, I think 
I had more Ramp Time than any one in Lima Flight, maybe in all of 58 B. 
Walking the ramp, as Garcia says, was not that bad. But it was the lost 
study time that really hurt. Using those ramp hours as study time could have 
improved our grades quite a bit, I think. But the Ramp did build character, 
military posture and marching ability. I suspect that I got most of my hours 
for inadequate posture and marching, but no one ever told me that. I don't 
remember exactly as to hours but I know that I walked the ramp every weekend. 
And I was always with the last group to finish. What an experience. But my 
posture as well as my marching did improve significantly. 
Ben Halsted, Lima Flight 
Subject: Re: Ramp
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 14:37:55 EDT
From: [email protected] 
 
Right on, Ed. Well said. Main thing is we survived! Ben
Subject: Re: Ramp
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 15:50:40 -0400
From: "Prentis L. Ollis" <[email protected]> 
 
Ramp dribble is thanks to Robert Raynsford... Well Ben if it built
character, I will rank very high on 58B Character Charts!!! I had two
major problems that did not sit well with First Class and my Tac
Officer, Lt. Simmons... I could not marched... I bounced!!! I could not
take the program very seriously... Most every time I was spoken to by
First Class and or Lt. Simmons I smiled or laughed.. The first day I
became know among the First Class as "Bouncing Bubbles". I have a mug
that was given to me by someone in OCS which on it is written Mr.
Bubbles. I to think the loss of study time on Sunday's made for lower
grades for some of us.
Subject: telephone dribble
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 15:31:10 -0400
From: "Bob Fields" <[email protected]> 
 
Dear Classmates:

It is a slow day at the office.

Did you ever notice that a telephone handset has 36 little holes in the part you speak in to, but only 8 in the part you listen through?

You would think that would mean that what one had to say was more important than what one was listening to. That is, when you call someone you want your voice to be the dominant one in the conversation. Like if you called your Mate to tell her/him you would be home late from the office, it would be harder for him/her it interrupt because your talking volume would be greater than her/his hearing volume. Then when you got home and he/she said, "Where the hell have you been", you could say to him/her, "I told you I would be late".

This is probably not a very big deal. But I find it curious that Alex Bell would have done that. Maybe there is a good, simple, scientific reason that I just can't understand.

Bob Fields
Thundering 3rd
Subject: Re: telephone dribble
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 14:31:22 -0500
From: "John A. Chamberland" <[email protected]> 
 
You don't suppose it's because he didn't want his wife to hear him when he told her he was going to be late do you?
Big John
Subject: Re: Ramp
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 15:38:49 EDT
From: [email protected] 
 
Hi Guys, 
I don't think I ever had a weekend off - just on the Ramp. Loaned my 
Plymouth wagon a couple time to others that had escaped that weekend. 
Retired July 1, 1971 - age 39 - 22 years, 2 months, 27 days. 

Bob Wallace 
Subject: Re: Ramp
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 15:38:59 -0400
From: "Frank Chavers" <[email protected]> 
 
Bob probably has it right on where the plow was left. The RAMP is another
story. Some of us spent so much time gazing at the adjacent barracks that
we became proficient in telling time by the sun angle on the building.
Unlike Rita some of us in 1st squadron gave white ones by the dozen only
because the previous first classman had pulled one. Frank.
Subject: Re: Ramp
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 12:47:56 -0500
From: "Jim Haynes" <[email protected]> 
 
Plow? Did we have a plow? Gosh, I must be getting
Alzheimer's. I can't seem to remember anything except that
OCS was in Texas somewhere - I think. Jim Haynes
Subject: Re: Ramp
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 12:50:44 -0500
From:"Jim Haynes" <[email protected]> 
To: <[email protected]>,  
I think our friend Gordon holds that record. Jim Haynes
Subject: Re: Ramp
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 14:28:53 -0700
From: Daniel J Sevin <[email protected]> 
To:  [email protected] 
 
On the ramp time - do you recall Jobe & I in the "OC Club" skit and Jobe had to do (A LOT) or ramp time as a result. Paul will remember, I'm sure. Hopefully he will share his version of this experience with us.

A most embarrassing time for me on one of my early tours on the ramp: You all know how hot and miserable it was out there. After quite some time standing & standing & standing one of the first class approached and said, "Mr Sevin, what is the first article of the..." You all know - "I am an American Fighting man. I serve .... I am prepared to give my life (and here my lips stuck together and I said "wife") for my country."

Snickers came from all directions... I could have died of embarrassment. The first classman "tried" to control himself but finally just turned and walked away. For the rest of that ramp session, as he walked by, he just looked and grinned. I felt the perspiration every time he went by.

Dan
Subject: Re: telephone dribble
Date:  Wed, 11 Apr 2001 13:21:03 -0500
From: "Jim Haynes" <[email protected]> 
To: "Bob Fields" <[email protected]> 

Bob, there is a very simple answer to your question (it
REALLY must be a slow day at the office). In the normal
positioning of the handset, the mouth piece is situated
lower than the earpiece. A study of the Newton/Halley 4th
Law of Gravitational Effects on the Dynamics of Fluids and
Gasses (Newton & Halley, "Quantum Crap You Really Don't Want
to Know", Royal Society Press, 1st Ed. 1651), will quickly
reveal to the lay person that as molecules of nitrogen and
oxygen (air) are de-striated downwards they tend to
accelerate at 32 fps squared squared. A non-linear
diffusion at the rate of pi time the rate of increasing
excitation will cause these molecules to have a "footprint"
4 times as great as the initial moment of de-striation.
Once at the mouthpiece, the heat of the person's breath as
they talk causes these molecules to overcome the
gravitational effects and to rise to whence they came
causing a reverse of the non-linear diffusion to attain
their original footprint.

Therefore, even an idiot can figure out that if there are 32
holes in the mouthpiece, there must be only 8 holes in the
earpiece. Otherwise these molecules, now confused, would
cause pressure to build up in the handset resulting in
blowing your damned head off. Jim Haynes
Subject: Re: telephone dribble
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 18:15:45 -0400
From: "Bob Fields" <[email protected]> 
To: "Jim Haynes" <[email protected]> 

I knew damn well someone would have the answer. That was a crystal clear and
much appreciated explanation. Thanks Jim,

Bob
Subject: Re: Ramp
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 07:24:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: jack brown <[email protected]> 
 
Hey y'all,

All this talk of the ramp---seems I remember 3 or 4 of
us did not walk the first week. Can't remember who
the others were but they worked our butts off hauling
furniture. Anyone remember that?

A ramp remembrance from our First Class. I was at
Stead in 1960 and George Kekuna had gone through
Survival Training there. He said he treated his time
in the "survival hot box" the same way as the
ramp--visioning counting the bricks on the building,
reciting all the memory work, etc., and didn't have
any problems with the box. At least someone gained
from the ramp.

Jack Brown
Subject: Re: Ramp
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 20:49:04 EDT
From:  [email protected] 
 
You are right, Ollie. Being long, lanky and with bowed legs, I too bounced 
and wobbled when I marched. Plus I have a sway back and a very dark, hard to 
shave beard. I think that is what put me on the ramp every weekend. I don't 
remember ever losing "a white one," nor getting gigged for our room's 
cleanliness/appearance. So I think that ramp time was simply allocated by 
our First Class Flight Lieutenants. 
At least that is what I think! 
Best always, Ben 
Subject: Re: Ramp
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 20:59:53 EDT
From: [email protected] 
 
Jim, you may be right. I do remember Gordon out on the ramp every time I was 
there. Ben Halsted 
Subject: Re: Ramp
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 06:45:22 -0500
From: "Jim & Lane Colvig" <[email protected]> 
 
Musing over the many ramp recollections leads me to believe my memory must have been leaving me even back then. I vaguely recall the first weekend as Second Class.....did two hours, I think. Never walked it again till First Class...as ramp supervisor........another saga previously told.

What I vividly remember is I never could master all the memory work. Dan's story reminded me of a time when I launched into the accepted spiel on lactic beverages, coffee temperatures, varieties, etc,........I was braced against the Mess Hall coffee urns,
perspiring extra heavy in full "Bunny" regalia on a hot morning after PT ( excuse me.... Physical Training). I was trying to make a general announcement for the benefit of all assembled, but had a perky little First Class nose to nose with me trying to disrupt the
magnificent symmetry of it all......his head bobbed left and right trying to get me to break the trance-like stare we all mastered.........Finally, he said "Are those the only beverages available, Mr Colvig?" Still into my loud,droning pitch I muttered, as an aside, in soft frustration; "Hell, I don't know". He snorted a surpressed laugh, reminded me Second Class aren't authorized to use contractions.....that the proper reply would be;"I do not know". With that sage wisdom he spun off back to his table, somewhere beyond my budding 270 degree peripheral vision. A terse moment, and tragedy averted.

That was an action packed six month stint!!!

Jim
Subject: Re: Ramp
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 14:56:25 EDT
From: [email protected] 
 
Frank and all: I have read all of our comments on the "Ramp" ....and I will 
have to say that catching one flunk (one course) the first month ...helped me 
in one way but sure played hell with any of the fun that I would have loved 
to been part of...however, do you remember those old coke machines in each of 
the lobby's....our First Class kinda got off me bacause of the course that I 
flunked...and they really and truly didn't want anyone to flunk out....you 
might give up but not go out by way of education...of which I am glad...going 
back to the coke machine...I was very small and skinny..(you can tell thats a 
long time ago...ha)...anyway, several of us wanted a couple of cokes after 
lights out....well that meant....some to keep watch...some to bring money and 
me to bring my skinny arms and hands to put up the coke machine tunnel to 
catch the coke coming down the shute and keep it quiet...don't know how our 
First Class find us out...but they caught us with two cokes and my hands up 
the machine...to which cost me four white ones...and my only tour on the 
"Ramp"...remember that night Frank....see you guys ....and keep remembering 
the good old days...because we sure as hell aren't going to see them 
anymore...have fun guys and girls and hope to see all of you at the 
re-union....Happy First Bill C.... 
Subject: Re: Ramp
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 17:25:02 -0400
From: "Frank Chavers" <[email protected]> 
 
BD, Byres and I drew Tony Carey as a roomie and drew several tours because Tony couldn't get up and get dressed in time for
formation. Never knew if Tony was just slow or working us. Frank.
Subject: RE: Ramp
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 08:43:35 -0400
From: "Glazener, Hal" <[email protected]> 

Yo Frank. Ernie Bobbitt and I had our share of the same experience. I feel certain that a little bit of both was true with Tony but that the "cooperate to graduate" creed fostered a weakness in some to slack off and some failed to grasp the responsibility that went along with the benefit. Tony was, if I recall correctly, not exactly spit and polish military
oriented and was one of several in our class that I refer to as the training guru's "grand experiment" to insert some "smart college grad's" into the OCS mix with the majority of us "old grits", former NCO's. For anyone in the brass to think the "program" would
be equally effective for a green civilian has always amazed me; but for those greenies who did get their bars the creed was a success for the moment. Does anyone know if any of these people ever stayed beyond their minimum commitment tour? 

My candidate for Ramp Champ has to be Harrington, deceased. I was his roomie several times, including the first days after we reported in. First class seemed to love hitting on him because he couldn't resist "bubbling" when they were trying their best to intimidate; I will always remember him coming off the ramp burnt to a strawberry red but never ready to say to hell with it or it wasn't worth it -- or for pulling his load every step of the way. 
Subject: Green Civilians
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 09:45:36 -0500
From: Arlet Boyer <[email protected]>
 
Dear Mr. Glazener:

You struck a nerve with your remark about "greenies". I was one of those
green civilians and I can tell you that I took my OCS training very
seriously. I went on to become Asst. Sq Adjutant of the Squadron where I
was assigned with the main duty being a supply officer. It was my time
in life to marry and start a family and unfortunately, due to unfair
female discrimination, was forced to resign early. In those days, if you
were pregnant, you were out. No such thing as maternity uniforms and
maternity leave as there is now. That came about several years later
with a lawsuit against the government by a pregnant female who wanted to
remain in the service. It never occurred to me to sue the government. It
was just the way it was.

So please don't make disparaging remarks about us "greenies". I had just
as much "cooperate and graduate" spirit as you did, and earned extra
ramp time for it.

Sincerely,

Helen Trammell Boyer
Subject: Re: Ramp
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 10:52:49 -0400
From: "Ed & Marta" <[email protected]>
 
There is a lot of truth in what you say Hal... but there were a few guys in class who had no/or little prior service who went on to bigger and better things in government service.....and then there were some who were prior NCOs who had a pretty rough
time of it after winning their gold bars and they paid for it in lost careers, benefits and security.....and then they had to go out and start all over again...sometimes ideals, principles and what your sense of "Right" is can get you in trouble.....and sometimes to "Go Along" can get you promotions.....but I understand what you are saying and you are right in saying that OCS was basically a way for the Air Force to select and promote qualified, experienced, enlisted people into the middle and upper levels of management and Command in both the flying and support elements. It is remarkable that the system was as efficient as it was....and you sure hit it on the head when you mentioned the severity of the training we all had to go through...the RAMP....what a B-Buster that was! the memory work, the drills and the class system....those were the elements that could transform a "Grit" or a "Greenie "into an officer provided he or she could stick it out! Perhaps that is why the experience has been so long impressed into our psyche...we were truly born again on 20 June 1958.
Ed
Subject: Re: Green Civilians
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 11:40:00 -0400
From: "Ed & Marta" <[email protected]>
 
I never knew you were a greenie Helen!! Thought you were a former Sergeant!
Sorta proves the value of Attitude, persistence and conviction.....traits you definitely have not lost!!
Ed
Subject: RE: Green Civilians
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 11:41:31 -0400
From: "Glazener, Hal" <[email protected]> 
 
Dear Helen: Please accept my apology if I offended you, the comments were not 
intended for that purpose. It is certainly true that spirit and attitude were not owned solely by any group or individual. You missed the point of my remark about Green Civilians, it was that the training guru's at the time were profoundly negligent, or stupid, by placing a small group, like yours, in a training environment where prior experience and service played a major role in success. In other words, you and the others with no prior service had a harder road to travel to graduation. With that however, I must I also believe the
"cooperate to graduate" creedo was over emphasized and some took advantage of it - but 
then, life ain't always fair just as certain you can't avoid "touching a nerve" sometimes 
regardless of the intent. Have a Nice Day. HAL GLAZENER 
Subject: Re: Green Civilians
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 12:23:48 -0400
From: "Bob Fields" <[email protected]>
 
way to go Helen...although I am not sure anyone ever thought of you as a
Greenie!

Bob
Subject: Re: Ramp
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 12:37:22 -0400
From: "James Hope" <[email protected]> 
 
Hal. My brain may not be working too well after 8 days on the ventilator but seems to me there never was a program to put college graduates in OCS. They were all CIA like Phil Agee. Someone help me. Wasn't Tony CIA too ?
Subject: Re: Green Civilians
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 13:32:14 -0400
From: "James Hope" <[email protected]>
 



Hal, Several months back we did a bunch of stuff on Phil Agee and I'm sure Ollie can tell you where it is. Anyway according to Agee's book, there was no training guru who thought combining NCOs and Green Civilians was a good idea, For some reason CIA used OCS to start their agents. Agee became an intelligence officer and spent about a year in a fighter wing in Victorville ,Ca then went back to Washington DC for further CIA training. He talked about 12 maybe 17 other agents who had been in the 4-5 classes around us all now receiving CIA training at the Farm. I'm almost sure that Tony was a CIA agent. OLLIE< ED> do you remember?----- Original Message ----- 
Subject: Re: Green Civilians
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 18:38:46 -0400
From: "Prentis L. Ollis" <[email protected]>
 
Here are couple of URL's on our WEb where we address Phil Agee.

Ollie

 http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~ocs58b/point-of-view/cia-agee.htm 

 http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~ocs58b/bios/agee/agee.htm 
Subject: CIA
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 18:11:04 -0500
From: Arlet Boyer <[email protected]>
 
Dear Classmates,

Have just been reading the letters on CIA-AGEE. Let me assure you I was
not CIA even though I was a civilian. I came in with two years of
college which was the only requirement other than age. The CIA wouldn't
have wanted me anyway as I was too dumb or else I wouldn't have
attempted OCS. Good thing I didn't know any better. It's a miracle I
passed.

Let me take a moment to pass on this interesting story about
immunizations. While waxing the floor one day, I really did pass my hand
under the door and came back with a finger full of splinters. Went on
sick call to get a tetanus booster and discovered I had a complete set
of immunizations from basic training. Well, guess what? I had never been
through basic and had never had any of those immunizations. The whole
record had been fabricated. Wonder what else had been made up and on
whom?

Helen Trammell Boyer
Subject: Re: CIA
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 18:32:06 -0500
From: "Jim & Lane Colvig" <[email protected]>
 
Helen;

This is becoming more Rod Serling-ish by the moment. Maybe the entire
program was a figment of our collective imagination. As our Pal Snoopy wold
say; "Good Grief!!!"

The July 2000 period was one heckuva heated exchange month on
P.A........ and I seem to have missed it. Hell, I just got word that
Lindberg made it.

JC
Subject: Re: Green Civilians
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 15:46:51 -0400
From: "Ed & Marta" <[email protected]>
 
I remember him talking about others in his book...I think the choice of OCS was obvious for several reasons...the education on Air Force History, Structure, Missions, objectives, Capabilities: Learning how to write, Staff Studies, Problem solving, Analysis: Drills and Ceremonies. Foreign Studies ......almost two years of College in six months looks like a bargain education to me. Then there was also the prima facie evidence of graduating the course.......said a lot about character, dedication and fortitude. In other words the CIA and possibly other deeper units used the USAF program not only to benefit the attendees but their organizations as well. (Just as the USAF did)
Ed