AndrRebutp2 This is getting more confusing with all the responses to responses. I'll continue my practice of inclosing portions of the original report within quotation marks, and indenting the first line of the response the "new" comment refers to. For those times when two "responses" are needed to explain the comment, I'll indent the first line of each, but omit any spacing lines between the two responses. An easier way of remembering this: All new comments begin AT the left margin. My occasional attempts to clarify are in brackets, but my attempts to add to the discussion begin with LSS. We begin with "responses to responses" between Doug and Heather. DCT: Third, there was an "extra, unaccounted for"Andrew Moorman hanging around the Anson Co., NC countryside in the 1760's. This Andrew Moorman appeared to have been born about 1739. He married Ann Diggs in Anson Co. in 1761. HO: I'm still waiting for you to provide evidence of this marriage, and of this "extra" Andrew Moorman. DCT: Guess I'd better get hopping! There are Anson Co., NC land records and road orders that include this "unaccounted for Andrew" in the years after the death of both Andrew Sr. (d1756) and Andrew Jr. (d1761 in GA) These references are too early for the referenced Andrew to have been the son of any other son of Andrew Sr. Benjamin, for example, had a son named Andrew who was born in 1757. He would not have been old enough to own land in his own name until 1778. HO: Do you have the dates for these road orders? HO: Actually, we don't know for sure that Agnes [dau of Francis Clark Sr.] married John, though I very strongly suspect it. In the will, a slave that is to go to Agnes is to go to granddaughter Cordelia Haley after Agnes's death. This suggests that Cordelia is Agnes's daughter, but doesn't tell us who her father is. DCT: Haley family records show that Mary and John Haley had a daughter named Cordelia born in 1760. HO: This gets kind of messy, because we have to know which generation of Haleys we are talking about, and Haley researchers are not of one mind about this. The John Haley who had a will in Louisa Co. in the 1770's named a daughter Delia (I assume short for Cordelia) in his will. It's not clear to me whether this John is the one who married Agnes Clark, or the son of Agnes and an earlier John. Patti Lamb endorses the latter view. I can't quite decide what I think. HO: I'm going to go out on a limb and get myself in trouble here, but do we know these are all Cordelia's children? Could Francis have married twice? (Ducking) DCT: I think I have seen information that Cordelia (Lankford) Clark died in 1754. Not certain, however. HO: Linda, does this ring any bells for you? Thinking about it, I don't remember seeing Cordelia's name in the Quaker records after her marriage. What is the latest date that we KNOW she was alive? Do we have any property transfers with or without dower releases? LSS: I'm no expert on the Francis Clark line. I think you are raising a good point. I know I have questions about the "probable" ages of some of his children when they married and a possible second wife (thus them being younger) would take care of that particular problem. For instance, even though Christopher and Penelope "are said" to have married after Francis and Cordelia, their older children were getting married in the 1730s; whereas Francis and Cordelia's children "that we know about" were married in the 1740s, 1750s and even later - but Ursala is a special case. On the other hand, it is biologically possible for Cordelia to be the mother of them all. And lack of dower release isn't, of and by itself, an indication of her death. DCT: You're correct about his [Isham] not necessarily living there. However, I found a land record last night that says that in 1758, William Haley of NC bought 400 acres from Alkand Anderson near Joseph Clark's, Francis Clark's line in Louisa Co. HO: I'm familiar with this transaction. He was actually buying back land he had previously sold to the same gentleman for the same price a year or so earlier. My guess is that this wasn't a "real" transaction, but a sort of secured loan, so he would have money to get set up in NC. William sold some land in Louisa Co. in the 1770's (John Haley was given POA to carry out the transaction) I had always assumed it was the above land that was disposed of in the 1770's. [LSS: Since it took me a moment, POA is power of attorney.] DCT: I assume that it was Francis Clark's property at this location that was given to Isham Haley and that it was contiguous to William Haley's land in the same location. The land information tends to support a conclusion that Isham was the son of William and also "suggests" that William may have been dead by 1769, leaving Elizabeth Clark Haley a widow. HO: Nope. William had a will in NC in the 1780s. His wife was dead by the time of the will. DCT: Actually, I was wrong. Francis Clark gave Elizabeth Haley only four shillings which suggests that he had dealt with her inheritance at an earlier time, as he had with Francis and Christopher when they went to NC in 1753/54. Elizabeth and William Haley also were among the group who went to NC in 1753/54. HO: Good point. DCT: As for Agnes vs. Mary, they are the same person as far as I am concerned. HO: What source do you have for the 'alternate' name of Mary? LSS: Although I can only "cite" print-outs from messages on various lists, I have nicknames for Mary: "Dolly can be a pet name for Dorothy or even Mary instead of the usual Maisie, Mae, Maria, Mamie." Another gives: Mamie, Molly, Mollie, May, Maisie, Polly, Minnie, and Moll. The only mention of Agnes shows "Aggi" as the nickname. For some reason I thought Agnes was a nickname for Nancy, or vice versa - but that wasn't given. Would someone who enjoys surfing like to find the "definitive list" of nicknames on the net? [Returning to the original report, we have a comment from Lea Dowd (hence LD)] "Dec 1747 Court papers refer to John as "George Smith, also known as John Moorman". What exactly the "alias" reference meant is not known." HO: You mentioned this before. Very odd. Wish I knew what it meant. Has anyone seen anything like this anywhere else in the vicinity? LD: Yes, I have seen this on more than one occasion. While this may NOT be the case here.... I have seen this when a man who had property died without a son or an heir. He left everything to a nephew, but the nephew had to assume his surname. I saw this in Brunswick Co., VA, and in Northampton Co., NC. In Surry Co., VA, I saw it where a man died without a male heir and his step sons assumed his last name as an alias. The records then referred to them by their own surname and "alias ____" in court records. The descendants of these people, usually ended up using the alias as a surname. Now for a change of pace and new topic. I debated about sharing this with the group, for this discussion can be very confusing to us not familiar with these particular JOHNSON and MOORMAN families. However, I think it is beneficial to get a glimpse of what goes on behind some of the reports, and a chance to see why some of the discussions seem tedious at times. If nothing else, it is a clear example of why we have to be careful about "assigning" things to individuals of the same name in families where everyone is named after someone. But the main reason for my including this discussion is the JOHNSON extractions from Hinshaw. Be aware I have edited "out" some of the none relevant comments. We begin with Ed Marsh's question from Doug's original report: "In 1739 Andrew Moorman Sr's daughter, Ludy, born about 1723, married Capt. James Johnson, son of John Johnson and Lucretia Massie of King William Co." EM: I'm having a hard time finding the James Johnson citation in Hinshaw. Is this the one you mean? Encyclopedia of American Quaker Genealogy: Virginia [p.295] RECORDS (Note by Dr. Lorand V. Johnson) "James Johnson, son John & Elizabeth (Ellyson) Johnson, marry (1) in Hanover Co., Va., Mildred Moorman, & had two sons, Moorman & Christopher. All were granted certificate to New Garden monthly meeting, N. C., but Mildred, the wife, died before reaching N. C. (See Hinshaw Vol. 1, page 554) James marry (2) Penelope Anthony without consent of the New Garden Mtg, N. C. & was disowned. Later he was reinstated & granted certificate to South River monthly meeting, Va., 1775, 2, 25. The sons of his 1st marriage, Moorman & Christopher were left at the home of their grandfather, Micajah Moorman, & James enlisted in the Revolutionary Army. His 2nd wife, Penelope (Anthony) J. removed back to Cedar Creek monthly meeting from South River with certificate dated 1777, 10, 18 & lived there until 1781 when the family removed back to South River monthly meeting, with a certificate dated 1781, 4, 14. In 1795 James & family were granted certificate to Goose Creek monthly meeting, Bedford Co., Va. (the family being, James & wife, Penelope, & child, Elizabeth, Sarah, Joseph, James, Jesse, Judith, Mary, Penelope Anthony, Agness & Rachel). In 1812, 9, 3 James & wife, Penelope, & child, Elizabeth, Sarah, Judith, Penelope Anthony, Agnes & Rachel were granted certificate to Miami monthly meeting, O. by Goose Creek monthly meeting. Later he removed with his family to Leescreek, O., where he founded the town of Leesburg, O." Salient points (to me): 1] Capt. James Johnson, son of John Johnson and Lucretia Massie of King vs. James Johnson, son John & Elizabeth (Ellyson) Johnson, marry (1) in Hanover Co., Va., Mildred Moorman. DCT: My notes show only that the source of "James Johnson, dis mou" in 1739 was from the records of the Cedar Creek Meeting. Since Hinshaw recorded some of the Cedar Creek records, but not all, I may have mistakenly attributed the information to his Encyclopedia. The marriage date usually given for their marriage, 5 Mar 1738/39, came from Lorand Johnson, but there are other sources as well. Your problems are with the Johnsons, who had far too many James Johnsons in the first four generations in VA. Everyone got confused and gave each James' a nickname. The James Johnson who married Lucy Moorman was called Capt. James Johnson -- his son was Maj. James Johnson. There also was a Seneca James Johnson, a Gov. James Johnson and so on. The fact that many of the early James Johnsons married Moormans just roiled the already muddy genealogical waters. In any case, Capt. James Johnson was the son of John Johnson and Lucretia Massie. His birthdate is traditionally stated as 1707, but I think that may be the date of an earlier James who died as a child. I think it is more likely that Capt. James Johnson was born about 1717 in King William Co. on a plantation known as "Old Town" where he later lived as an adult. Capt. James' older brother, John, also had a son named James Johnson (1737-1820) who marrried Mildred Moorman, dau. of Thomas Moorman and Rachel Clark (this is my Moorman line as I will try to explain, later). This latter James was nicknamed "Governor" James. Capt. James Johnson and Lucy Moorman had nine children. As you know, their daughter Agnes married James Candler. Their youngest daughter, Elizabeth, (b1756) was the second wife of Zachariah Moorman -- the same Zachariah Moorman who by his first wife was the father of Anna Moormam who married Zed Candler in 1772. In any case, Elizabeth Johnson Moorman's daughter Lucy Moorman (1782-1865) married Benjamin Bangham and their daughter Martha Bangham (1811-1848) married Thomas Chalkley Moorman (1805-1880) who was my ggg grandfather. Also, Thomas Chalkley Moorman's mother, my gggg grandmother, was Elizabeth "Sukey" Johnson who was the daughter of Christopher Johnson and Mildred Moorman, the granddaughter of Gov. James Johnson and Mildred Moorman, and the great granddaughter of John Johnson and Elizabeth Ellyson -- the same John Johnson who was the older brother of Capt. James Johnson. Now you may understand why I know these particular Johnsons and Moormans so well. Despite Lorand Johnson's claim, it was not Gov. James Johnson who "founded" the town of Leesburg, OH. Yes, he settled in Highland Co. in 1812, but almost all of his married children and their families were already settled there before Gov. James and Mildred Johnson arrived. In fact, sons Christopher and Moorman Johnson arrived in Highland Co. in 1806. It is also my understanding that his sons James and Anthony were primarily responsible for laying out the town of Leesburg. DCT: Okay, I have found the citations and I appreciate your forbearance: 1739, 3, 5. James disowned married out of unity [Hinshaw, pg. Beginning 153] 1734/35, 11, 12. James' name first appeared when he signed a certificate of a marriage held in New Kent Co. 1739, 9, 4. John Jr., Gideon, Squire, Macal, Ashle, James, Margery, John Sr., Charles, Nathan, Elizabeth, Martha & Lucy signed marriage certificate of Micajah Woody with Cicile Johnson in Hanover Co. These seem to be children of John Johnson, Sr: Cicile, John Jr, James, Ashle. Can you identify the other Johnsons? Are they Children of William's? Are some corrupted spellings of David, Massie, or Agnes? DCT: I do wish to ask some questions. 1] Were William and John Johnson (Below) brothers? William Johnson, b. 1677, Aberdeen Scotland,d. 1714, m. Sarah Massie (Parents of Benjamin Johnson (1705-1754) who married Agnes Clark (1712-1754) --- and John Johnson, b 1775, Aberdeen Scotland, d. 1716, Hanover Co, VA, m. 1698, St Peter's Par., VA, Lucretia Massie (Parents of Capt. James Johnson, b. 1707) ED: Isn't John m. Elizabeth Ellyson the son of John m. Lucretia Massie? So, if each had a son named James, wouldn't we be talking two James -- uncle and nephew -- not the same guy! Capt. James Johnson, b. c1707 was brother to John, b c1702 (who married Elizabeth Ellyson). DCT: The traditional view had been that William and John Johnson were brothers, both the sons of immigrant Quakers James Johnson and Margaret Alexander of Aberdeen. However, there is some evidence that suggests that they may not have been brothers -- I think the jury remains out on that issue. John, however, was the son of James Johnson and "probably" Margaret Alexander as we can track the "Old Town" property in King William from original grantee James Johnson in 1702 to son John Johnson, then to Capt. James Johnson (the James who married Lucy Johnson), then to Maj. James Johnson who was married to Lucy Ammon, and finally to Ammon Johnson who sold the property to his mother-in-law (a Littlepage) about 1826. LSS: I suspect Rhoda Fone (MASSIE reseacher) and Suzanne Johnston will have more to say on this subject. For now, Ed's next comment is instructive for anyone using the Hinshaw CD: EM: Doug and I exchanged several e-mails privately .1] I was able to find the earlier (1739) James Johnson citation in Hinshaw. . I like to search Hinshaw from a database search engine. The problem is, listings under "JOHNSON" don't always repeat the last name (just list the first name and info). The search engine, looking for [James Johnson], skips right over [James]. However, when I searched [Johnson 1739], I went right to the citation for Capt. James of Louisa County. The James in Bedford was the nephew of the James in Louisa. BUT, there is more fun. Louisa James' son James eventually moved to Bedford so they were both there together further complicating matters. I'll sketch out the charts so you can see what I mean but I'll leave out all the genealogical data, since probably, y'all know it better than I anyway. 1 John Johnson (1675-1716) b. Aberdeen Scotland, d. Hanover, VA m 1698, New Kent Co, VA, Lucretia Massie some of their children; 2 John Johnson, b. 1702 m. 1725, New Kent Co, VA, Eliz. Ellyson, their children; 3 James Johnson, m1. Mildren Moorman 4 Moorman Johnson 4 Christopher Johnson m2. Penelope Anthony some of their children; (10 altogether) 4 James Johnson 2 Capt. James Johnson, (c1707-after 178), b. New Kent Co, VA, d. Hanover Co, VA m. 1739 Cedar Creek MM, Lucy Moorman (1723-after 1784) some of their children; (9 altogether) 3 Agnes Johnson m. 16 Jan 1786, Louisa Co, VA, James Candler (son of John Candler, Sr, and Elizabeth Gibson) 3 James Johnson (nothing further) I, for one, am glad I don't have to personally sort through all these JOHNSONs. I think everyone now sees why we have to be so careful about names, dates, state and county, parents and their children, and why we ask for specific citations and sources. It's just too easy to go astray without them. Suzanne plans a major research project for the JOHNSON / JOHNSTON clan soon. We'll be asking for volunteers; I hope several of you can help with this. Rhoda is now retired, so we look forward to hearing more from her about the MASSIEs, etc. LSS